Ladies first? SMU prof wants classroom rule

Dal’s Forum on Misogyny hears idea that women should speak first in class, public events

Judy Haiven suggested at a Dal forum on misogyny that female students should be allowed to speak first in classroom discussions, as a rule. Left to right: Jude Ashburn, Afua Cooper and Judy Haiven. Photo: Keili Bartlett
Judy Haiven suggested at a Dal forum on misogyny that female students should be allowed to speak first in classroom discussions, as a rule. Left to right: Jude Ashburn, Afua Cooper and Judy Haiven. Photo: Keili Bartlett

Women should be heard first in the classroom, a forum on misogyny at Dalhousie University heard Thursday.

“Men should not be allowed to monopolize these forums,” Saint Mary’s University management professor Judy Haiven said.

Seven panelists spoke to the crowd in the Dalhousie Student Union Building’s largest conference room on Thursday to discuss misogyny on university campuses.

Haiven suggested several ideas to combat misogyny, all of them centred on promoting female participation in events.

Her idea that women should always speak first in classroom discussions and at public events was brought up several times during the forum.

Haiven said she already tries to apply this idea in her own classroom.

“(In) the management department, women get to speak first. I think that that is a primary issue that we actually have to look at, how to do question and answer (periods). And we can start today.”

The misogyny forum was held on the same day that Halifax Regional Police said it would not pursue a criminal investigation in the Dalhousie dentistry scandal, after reviewing controversial Facebook posts.

Haiven’s idea was met by a round of applause, but not everyone agreed with her suggestion.

The panel fielded a question from Twitter asking whether the idea would just “perpetuate the problem the other way?”

“Yes, I suppose at some point that could happen,” Haiven said.

“But right now what we see is … women generally don’t come forward and speak up at meetings … we see women taking a backseat.

“We see that there has to be some kind of affirmative action so that women, I hope, take a more active role in the classroom, in running things, in various student affairs. We’ve got a real problem.”

More women are graduating with university degrees than ever before, and often take up the majority of classes, “yet you wouldn’t know that.”

Three panelists at Dal's forum on misogyny watch a rap video at the beginning of the discussion. Photo: Keili Bartlett
Three panelists at Dal’s forum on misogyny watch a rap video at the beginning of the discussion. Photo: Keili Bartlett

Jacqueline Skiptunis, vice-president academic and external for the Dalhousie Student Union, said she personally has been hesitant to talk in group discussions. When she did speak up, her statements were often questioned, and believed only when a man agreed with her.

Jude Ashburn agreed with Haiven.

“I think that women of colour should speak first in class,” Ashburn said after the panel discussion.

Ashburn is an outreach co-ordinator for South House, a gender and sexual resource centre in Halifax, and identifies as a “non-binary trans person.”

“When I do activist circles or workshops, I often say, ‘OK, if you’re white and you look like me and you raise your hand, I’m not going to pick on you before someone of colour.’ So I do give little disclaimers, like people of colour will have priority, or if you’re a person with a disability, you’re pushed to the front … I mean, you know, bros fall back,” Ashburn said with a laugh.

Ashburn said during the panel that they feel “burned out” when “what about the men?” is asked in “every conversation” about misogyny.

Ashburn said people can get upset with this approach, because they have to give up some privilege, a topic the forum discussed throughout the first panel of speakers.

Jacqueline Warwick said it’s not the first time she’s heard such a rule suggested.

Warwick is the former co-ordinator of the gender and women’s studies department at Dalhousie and one of the four Dal professors who filed a complaint against Dal’s restorative justice approach.

“That’ll be a difficult one for people to accept,” Warwick said.

“I do think, in general, there are a lot of studies that indicate women, girls are socialized not to speak first. … And so to make a conscious rule, a deliberate rule that is explicit, that ‘no, men are not allowed to speak first,’ is certainly a strong way of addressing that issue, but one that will at least get people thinking about it,” said Warwick.

“That’s already some progress, I believe.”

 

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126 thoughts on “Ladies first? SMU prof wants classroom rule

  1. You can get a feel for how ridiculous a notion is by replacing the groups involved, and seeing if it becomes preposterous. Chinese people should speak first in classrooms. African people should speak first in classrooms. Even when going with minorities that get far more flack than Western women in this century, like gay people should speak first in classrooms.

    It’s just ridiculous, and would be several steps backwards. Just because these panelists don’t feel they’re smart enough to make themselves heard is no reason to do this.

    1. Or better yet, men speak last. Black people speak last. Homosexuals speak last. This is a sexist policy and devalues men instead of achieving any sort of equality. For what it’s worth student engagement has been split fairly evenly in my classes at Dal.

    2. So true. For some reason (probably decades of rhetoric impinging from all directions) women are held in all our brains as a super-special class about which anything goes to help them out.

      The societal conversations we’ve had about Chinese, African-Americans, homosexuals, disabled veterans, etc, all of those conversations have taken place in the context of one another, and in relation to our constantly-developing idea of personal freedom and societal fairness.

      But when we talk about women, we forget all that. We operate on this belief that women are so special and so different that none of the things we’ve learned from any of the other rights movements can be applied.

      But that’s not true. We must apply the lessons we’ve learned from history to this current conversation about women’s “rights” (er, I mean privileges codified into law and regulation across our entire society).

      1. “We operate on this belief that women are so special and so different”

        Which is especially insane considering women make up 51% of the population. The **majority of the population** wants to be treated as special, and nobody calls them on it.

        1. Its not really the majority of females saying this. This is just some insane nutjob(probably a feminist) dragging everyone else to their level. They want segregation and preferential treatment in the name of “equality”.
          This is just the other extreme of the discrimination spectrum where they treat other races and genders like savages who must be saved from themselves.

    3. It’s as if the panelists (the ones who have been quoted in this article) have never seen other humans, and are just only discovering the fact that EVERYONE looks different. Extremely shameful, and they shouldn’t be calling themselves “academics”, if they are to spew such ignorance.

    4. The panellists were saying quite the opposite. They know they’re smart enough and are fed up with the experience of being treated otherwise and seeing the discriminatory behaviour perpetuated towards others as well.

      By your definition “being smart enough to make themselves heard” would require a few hundred years of being the only people with steady access to education, wealth, voting, and employment, with a society built around concepts that place them at a social advantage in nearly every aspect.

      1. L, are you telling me that these ladies can’t be heard in classrooms where people speak one at a time by raising their hands, or in public university forums where people form lines and take turns talking? This is perposterous. It’s clearly for advantage, not equality.

        1. Gee, how did these lilting flowers get to college, earn better grades than men, and get more degrees than men? Are these people saying that behind every seemingly succsessful woman is a man clearing the way? Are women succeeding or not?

      2. There was no “few hundred year” period where men had more access to education, wealth, or voting than women. Until the 20th century, wealth was tied strictly to class and ignored gender altogether, and the vast majority of women AND men had no access to wealth. Prior to the industrial revolution, boys and girls got the same education until each became old enough to help out around the house, at which time BOTH left school to help the family survive. During the late industrial period (for a few decades until the Victorian Period) boys did have access to more education than girls, yes. Likewise, for a few decades, men had the right to vote before women earned it.

        Why did men get the vote: because they were expected to go to war for the country and put their lives on the line… because of that fact, they were given the vote in exchange for their forced service. Precisely the same case for employment, actually. Men’s employment was anything but a “benefit” prior to the 20th century: it was a social obligation for responsible men (a mindset that still exists today, in fact… men who are unemployed are seen as lazy or irresponsible, whereas the same judgement isn’t put on women).

        Did women have it worse than men, historically? Absolutely. Did men have it good? Not in the least. Both men and women were simply products of their environments and rigid social structures: each sex’s expectations were unique, and created their own hardships and challenges.

        Basically: creating a hostile environment for the “opposite” sex is not the right way to go about creating a good environment for the other… especially when men, in this case, are the dwindling proportion of university students, and, frankly, need more encouragement that they’re welcomed and appreciated at university instead of less.

      3. L, How do you imagine this suggestion being enforced in the classrooms?

        Will there be a fine for every man who speaks out of turn, or do you just want to go back to the concentration camps straight away?

    5. This is an instance where misogynists are trained, not bred.

      I’m glad this is only a suggestion, but it’s crappy ideas like this that make me wonder if women are inferior. When I was in high school and a 1st-year geometry instructor was teaching the class something wrong, I didn’t need help correcting her. Why does one gender need first chance to speak? Is it so they can blab before we subject their idea to fair criticism (or fair praise, if it’s correct)?

    6. “You can get a feel for how ridiculous a notion is by replacing the groups involved, and seeing if it becomes preposterous.”
      I’m holding on to that quote, because I don’t think there’s a better way to immediately show how stupid, hateful, or perhaps simply ignorant an idea is.

      Now of course, because the opposition will often go for an argument that intentionally tries to ignore logic, they’ll try and say that this is necessary because in their eyes it’s making up for some sort of institutionalized bias that already exists, despite the fact that in this case, we’ve been seeing for years that schooling is favoring women. Starting in grade school where boys are treated as ‘defective girls’ and ending in college where women have classes specifically tailored to their gender, men are treated as predators, and women end as the majority graduates.
      That’s where the issue of double standards come in. People fail to realize that every time there’s a double standard that they see as an injustice, there is often a flipside they don’t see. In gender issues they exist in nearly every case. Examples:
      -Women are shamed for being sluts. Men are shamed for NOT being sluts. If a girl is a virgin, she might have high standards, be religions, play hard to get, or simply believe it should be saved for someone you truly love. If a guy is a virgin, even if it is for any of those reasons it won’t matter. No one would believe it’s not because he hasn’t simply tried and failed, and he’s not GOOD ENOUGH to get some.
      -Pay gap. Empathy gap. I could talk on that longer on either of those issues than anyone’d care to listen in a single comment…
      -Historically, women were treated as property that belonged to their father or husband. Historically, men were expected to lay down their lives to defend their family, property, and country. Either by going to war, or else simply fighting and defending against anyone who wished to do them harm. A man’s life was seen as less important than the safety of his ‘property’, family included.

    7. Women DO speak first. The conferences and discussions and presentation on gender issues on college campuses are always about their issues from their perspective.

      Men already DO speak second. If you are responding a presentation on misogyny, then you RESPONDING. And responding means speak second.

      But even that is too good for us man-slime. She wants us to speak THIRD.

    8. Unfortunately, there’s nothing “ridiculous” (if by that you mean out of the realm of possibility) about it. One of the participants in the conference is already concerned about race, stipulating that women of colour should speak before white women; of course, lesbian women of colour would need to speak before women of colour; and disabled lesbians of colour would need to speak before able-bodied lesbians of colour; and disabled Muslim women would need to speak before non-Muslim women; and so on and on. This is how these people think: hierarchies of oppression, ‘intersectionality,’ redressing historical inequities. Perhaps what needs to take place is that when one begins university, one gets an identity card indicating one’s place in the victim pecking order; all decisions about speaking, grades, scholarships, and special rights will be made based on one’s perceived degree of suffering.

  2. “Haiven said she already tries to apply this idea in her own classroom.”

    In which case she is being discriminatory and sexist, she should be sanctioned.

    The fact she feels she can say such things in a public forum with impunity, suggests Dal problems are not what they seem and in are fact bigger than they seem. All of this seems more about her than anything else.

    1. She should be sanctioned- I’d confront her and make a complaint. Anyone in her class should take a stand against bigotry. This is no different than being told to get to the back of the bus. She should be gone.

  3. Disgusting. Go on with the discrimination against white males, no one cares after all. Misandry is a real thing. I am glad that these hateful people come forward, because in 2-3 decades the misandry will be recognized and these people will be labelled appropriately.

  4. “Haiven said she already tries to apply this idea in her own classroom.”

    Someone needs to complain about Judy Haiven. This undermines everything for which we have been fighting. We need equality. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to talk and that means equal chance to be the first speaker, equal time speaking, and equal consideration given to arguments.

    This actually makes me sick and sad that I graduated from Saint Mary’s University.

    1. Furthermore, (I can’t believe I’m commenting twice) what do these women think of me? Do they think I am not capable of speaking up first in class? Do they think that women in general aren’t capable of speaking up first? /

      This entire idea is so hypocritical and detrimental to the ideals of equality that it makes me sick.

      1. Her approach is based on the fact that people do not start out on equal footing. For social reasons women and other systemically oppressed groups are less likely to speak up. She’s acknowledging that.

        1. Women are not systematically oppressed. They are not oppressed at all. They are the most privilege class there is, and they would discover this if gender quotas for hard, dirty and dangerous jobs were imposed.

        2. So if black people were shown to speak up even less than women, you’d be ok with a rule making it so that the could speak before any woman? If we’re going down this path, there’s a whole lot of sorting to go though. Does the crippled war vet come before or after the visible minority with a learning disability? What if the latter is female?

          No, it’s easier to just encourage everyone to participate regardless of who they are, with no set “rule” on who can talk first.

        3. I’m a minority and spent most o my life in situations and in classrooms dominate by white males and i never had a problem getting my voice heard. This idea of women as precious little delicate snowflakes has got to go. It is insulting to women.

    2. What she suggested gives everyone a chance to speak. She’s not denying men speaking time or consideration.

      1. No.. just makes them wait until the end. Despite the fact that their opinion or answer or question may be more valid than someone else. Or the fact that they are trying hard to ask questions and learn is being taken away from them for someone who is too bored or weak to raise their hand and ask a question in public.

      2. Of course she is denying men speaking time or consideration. There isn’t a class around that doesn’t have a fixed schedule, and any instructor worth anything has to devote some of the class time to teaching…so by shuffling the male students to the back of the line every time they want to ask a question or contribute to a discussion, she is invariably ensuring that some will be denied the opportunity to speak in class!

        What she’s suggesting is that universities should employ that “progressive stack” BS that killed the Occupy Wallstreet movement! And frankly for a professor to so brazenly and openly favour some students over others…would seem to me to make said professor unsuited to teaching in university!

  5. This is terrible for everyone.

    Opinion matters when it is due, and people need to get out of their shell when they need to express it. Part of going to university is to develop these skills so that you become a competent individual out in the real world based on these skills acquired and developed.

    This is not a gender issue.
    This is a personality issue.

    If I ran a boardroom and wanted people’s opinion, time is money type of scenario with the directors and we are talking to our majority shareholder on the phone, does it even matter whether or not gender/race/religion come into play when answering a question?

    No. (any sane person can tell you this)

    This panel is just projecting their own inadequacies outward and not internally.

    This isn’t newsworthy. This is just a child throwing a tantrum to get attention.

    1. An extra moment of thought into the topic should bring to light the fact that socialisation affects personality and women are socialised to be quieter and submissive. Giving women the opportunity to speak first as a matter of course seems like an attempt to normalise this for everyone in the room, going against social norms, not effectively silencing anyone.

      1. “..and women are socialised to be quieter and submissive.”

        So a 100 years of feminism has utterly failed everyone, women included, while men and boys, apparently pointlessly, but most certainly systematically have been vilified in everything they do or say by these gender ideologues, to which Judy Haiven obviously belong?

        You know how I can tell?
        The personal is obviously political with her, that’s how.

        And the solution would then be more of the same, again with the same predictable outcome, but this time with the addition that men are no longer allowed to speak up in the presence of a female, until everyone has made sure that every woman in the vicinity don’t have anything to add?

        Why don’t you simply remove all basic human rights from men as a demographic as some sort of revenge for what, to them, completely unknown individuals did to other completely unknown individuals in the past, and let the present and next couple of generations of men, who obviously had no say in it, pay a dear price for what other people did to eachother in the past?

        Oh, wait, that’s the end goal, I forgot…
        -Sorry for speaking up or out of turn, btw.

      2. I’d like to see proof of women being socialised to be quiet and submissive.
        Society and the media particularly do nothing but encourage women go speak out and be heard.

        As one person has already commented, this is a personality issue, not a gender issue.

      3. This is blatent nonsense.

        If someone was to suggest that women speak last, the outcry would be deafening.

        Forcing others to be quiet so women can speak will never result in equality, simply the oppression of those forced to be quiet, namely, men.

        This idea goes against equality….it makes men second class citizens.

      4. Socialisation does not affect personality. Rather, it is personality which affects one’s social interactions. Hence shy people, whether male or female, will generally be less confident and less socially adept. Look at the world around you, and you will see women speaking as much as men do, if not more so. This is not a gender issue. This professor’s proposal, if not about her own personal issues, is yet another example of feminist misandry giving the lie to the claim that feminism is all about equality not female privilege.

      5. …women are socialised to be quieter…

        …then they need to resocialize themselves to be noisier, and the plan suggested in this article is not going to further that goal.

      6. Actually what it does is set up an artificial privilege these women will encounter nowhere else in the world. It discourages them from developing the will power to assert themselves. If women want to be heard, they need to speak and not expect everyone to agree with them. Of course the great majority of women understand that perfectly well. It seems only feminists perceive women to be weak and incompetent.

      7. Then instead of adapting and changing to suit the environment of a limited time capacity, everyone else is to be put at a disadvantage due to needless discrimination? Ridiculous! The world only cater’s to those who stick their necks out, learn from experience and enact. Developing strong and suitable traits is the better course of action.

        A step back for moment to see the grander scheme of this topic would hopefully put you into a more understandable and agreeable standpoint, L. This suggestion of this topic is a step back from itself.

  6. This policy is so backwards and poorly thought out, you may as well say “Women are so stupid, we have to FORCE them to learn by FORCING them to talk first in class.”

    How can you possibly keep that professor after such a blatantly sexist move?

  7. Only a true misandrist could suggest this with a straight face, and I think this sort of thing is really anti-feminist as well. How about teaching our daughters to speak up if they want to be heard, instead of teaching them they are weak and need to be coddled by ridiculous rules like this?

  8. Current events make these people out to be empowering heroes. History will point them out for what they really are; they are the same bigots that they supposedly fight against.

    1. Yay! Time to get the old armbands and black uniforms out of the closets again, for another re-enactment of last centurys fascism, this time with feminism as the preferred ideology.
      Just let me guess here…-Judy Haiven consistently failed all history classes or never attended one, am I right?

  9. MODERATOR’S NOTE: THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN EDITED.

    Addressing Jude Ashburn’s comment: ““When I do activist circles or workshops, I often say, ‘OK, if you’re white and you look like me …”

    How RIDICULOUS you sound! You are directly making a decision based on the outward appearance of your clients/students/group – you pick them based on appearance and skin colour. How much more offensive/ass-backwards can you get?

    Just shows what you place importance on. My gosh – how are you even allowed to address the public with such an awful, bigoted, and so very rude agenda?

    Your thought process needs to go further than whether someone “looks like you” or “doesn’t look like” you. Are you just realizing that ALL humans look different, everyone has different stories and genetics – but we are ALL human, so stop dividing people into these invented, harmful, and really irrelevant boxes. Stop pointing out differences as though you’ve never seen other human beings before.
    You’re acting like a 2-year-old at the zoo!

    Most people don’t care what the shape of your crotch is, or what colour your skin is. … Why don’t you learn a thing or two about CONTEXT? In the bedroom, be as judgemental as you like about genitals/skin colour. Those things are not relevant to do math, play music or write.

    Ever heard of just being polite, putting up your hand to speak, waiting your turn or giving others a turn? Momma didn’t teach you that? Neither did the schools you went to? Disgraceful.

  10. I’m male, so maybe I don’t get it, but, honestly, I’d think women would take issue with this. I’m trying to figure out why this professor assumes the female cannot compete in an open forum without the assistance of rules. Haven displays a poor, and inaccurate, opinion of women. Again, I’m not a woman, but if I were, she would not be my choice of advocate.

    1. Women do take issue with this, and they’re commenting on this thread. Even equity feminists take issue with this.

      And good sir, being male doesn’t affect your ability to understand anything. Standpoint theory is nonsense.

  11. I’m absolutly shoched that Dalhousie University is allowing such kind of hate speach to take Place on their campus.

    “Haiven said she already tries to apply this idea in her own classroom.”
    that is the very definition of sexism. treating somebody diffrent based on their sex. How must the men in her class feel.

    they must think that their opinion is worth less because of their sex!

    Judy Haiven needs to be sanctioned for such actions and Dalhousie University seriously needs to think on what kind of sexist and man hating idear they support. the fact that this happened on public conferencess shows their strong support of misandry. I truely feel sad for the all the male students.

  12. Is this the feminist equality I keep getting thrown in my face when I challenge feminist views and theories? When I reject the label and get told that I’m ignorant because feminism is about treating men and women as equals? Is this what I would support by taking on the label feminist? Women first? The more feminists show their true colours, the more feminist advocacy looks like Jim Crow era “etiquette” and law, with all men playing the role of black people.

  13. Out of all of the great things that were discussed at this forum, I’m both sad and unimpressed that this is the headline and focus of the story. It’s almost s though the person writing it has very little understanding of gender/power dynamics, which is what this is all about. Rather than focus on that, we have the repetition of what isn’t a very great idea. There are certainly situations where it is very difficult to be heard and a lot of double standards, particularly in the back rooms of institutional management as very briefly described in the article. Letting women always speak first, I think, isn’t going to solve that.

    Discussion on misogyny in our institutions is important. There are going to be a lot of ideas tabled about how and why this happens and how we might want to try to fix it. Not every idea is a keeper. I can assure you that there are many that are worth being discussed coming up throughout this process at Dal. To this article, I say ‘BOOOOO’ to sensationaliztion and shoddy coverage. Simplistic representations like this do not much more than reiterate how ‘bad’ ‘feminism’ and ‘feminists’ are. If you’re going to cover a complex issue, perhaps do it with a little bit of depth?

    1. The fact that you would even consider this suggestion exposes you as being no better than the people you’re trying to fight.

    2. Misogyny is not a complex issue, it’s quite simple: misogyny is actually extremely rare, and it is women, not men, who throughout history have generally been privileged. This doesn’t fit neatly with feminist ideology, founded upon fallacious assumptions backed up with distorted research by biased researchers, which have been debunked many times over. Misandry, too, is rare among the general population, and is more commonly found amongst the ranks of feminists and their gullible supporters.

    3. I’m sure Nazism was really positive too if you overlook a few “bad ideas” like the Final Solution. This proposal reveals what feminists really are. That you excuse insane and immoral behavior because the issue is “important” and “complex” demonstrates exactly what kind of person you are too.

    4. The problem Katie is that the structures you will claim justify this kind of BS don’t exist, they are the continued and uncritical application of Marxian theory. Just because men are more likely to speak up does not mean that women are being mistreated. outcomes=/=opportunities

  14. “As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy.”

    Christopher Dawson

    Replace “men” with “feminists” and this becomes very applicable here.

    1. Absolutely. Now they’re the ones saying women need their hands held just to speak up? Holy cow. I give the women in my life far more credit than they do.

  15. This is one of the most deluded and idiotic policies I have ever heard and I hold no regard for these people as ‘educators’ for it.

  16. Oh look, there’s that “feminism is for equality” thing again…

    You “men” *spit* speak last!

    And she has a job at a university lol

    A man can’t make a statement that can even be REMOTELY considered sexist by the eternally offended and he’ll be fired and socially ostracized.

    Feminists can blatantly sexist, displaying their movements hatred for all to see, with a megaphone and they keep their job, and noone bats an eye lash.

    Well played world, well played.

  17. Are you kidding me. Way to infantilize ALL women. This is blatantly sexist. This is not empowering women… this is telling them they are so timid, so weak, so pathetic that the only way their voices will be heard is if they use rules to tell the guys to shut up. Not to mention the message this sends to you male students. This is just another way of saying men are threatening to women. My kids, my money and my support will never, ever, be close to an institution that endorses sexism based on gender.

  18. Well said.

    This is sickening, bigoted nonsense that also devalues women. Instead of encouraging those women (and men) in classrooms who are too shy to speak their piece, let’s treat all women as retiring incompetents who cannot possibly learn to be intelligently forthright.

    When will feminist coddling of women, and its active discouragement of positive traits in women, end? Clearly women leading in college attendance and graduation rates at around 60% isn’t enough. Will 70% be sufficient? 80%?

    What on earth could the benchmark for women’s success possibly be, if a substantial majority representation and success rate is not considered to be enough? Anyone still wondering if feminism hasn’t devolved into a gender supremacy movement need only look at this kind of nonsense, which was not roundly criticized by (any) feminists.

  19. – “Men should not be allowed to monopolize these forums,”
    – “(In) the management department, women get to speak first.”
    – “…women generally don’t come forward and speak up at meetings … we see women taking a backseat”
    – “We see that there has to be some kind of affirmative action so that women, I hope, take a more active role in the classroom, in running things, in various student affairs.”
    – “I think that women of colour should speak first in class,”
    – “girls are socialized not to speak first.”
    – “no, men are not allowed to speak first”

    So. Bloody. Sexist.

    First off, putting ALL guys second because MOST women are socialized not to speak up, just serves to discriminate by association those very, very many shy men. Just because SOME guys speak out, does not by any means mean that ALL do, or should be punished for it.

    Secondly, this is Canada, where we have equality laws and a Human Rights Tribunal – if someone is being discriminated against, there is a system in place to put an end to it (unless, of course, you are a white male).

    Third, well more than half the graduates are female, so how exactly does this support your argument of systemic oppression by a patriarchy? Do you want equality, or do you just want to find an excuse to get rid of men because you are jealous, and see them as competition?

    Finally, why can no discussion involve the suppression of the male voice, the extolling of the female voice, and an all-female panel without somehow also containing a reference to a trans or lesbian person? In other words, why should this matter?

    “Should be required in classrooms (1%, 16 Votes)”

    Let me guess that the 1% will make the rules here, too…

  20. I am a white male and in twenty years of schooling I never said a word in class as I was way too timid. It was not helped by a frequent terrible nightmare I had at about having a white feather being shoved up my nose and the next thing I am terrified, crying and screaming in a muddy trench as bullets enter my shaking body and I drop down dead. I hope none of the girls had this dream. It was terrible.

    But I was lucky, as my mostly female teachers always called on the girls, so I would like to ask, if it’s not too much trouble, could one of the girls be allocated to speak in class for people like me? Or will they only be allowed to speak for themselves.

  21. It appears the truth is definitely coming out in this article. It may not be a surprise to many but third wave feminists are not interested in equality of opportunity, they want equality of outcome.

    This is becoming strikingly apparent in the US. Men used to outnumber women in university so they created women-only scholarships, Women-only campaigns. Women now make upwards of 55-60% of university students across the country; I wonder if we’ll have those scholarships repurposed to men-only if the purpose is to teach parity.

    They will, of course, come back and say “well women only make up 10-30% of STEM departments”. So what? If they want to enter STEM they can choose that profession over the humanities.

    Making women speak first is extremely disrespectful to everyone involved. It directly disadvantages men, who may or may not even have time to speak throughout class time. What if women don’t want to speak up? What if they have a shy personality: you’re essentially telling them that’s no longer acceptable. What if the class is made up of 90% men: you’ll still enforce women speak first, will you give women 50% of the speaking time as well?

    Make sure in your quest for “equality” you ensure to invade everybody’s privacy and ask them if they identify as trans. You wouldn’t want to let a trans man speak first and you have to ensure the trans women speak first.

    Let’s not forget to identify everybody by other demographics. Age, religion, sexual identity, politics, personality, ethnicity, whether or not they like pizza.

    I have never seen such a blatant public decree of reinforcing segregation. I truly hope the foolishness of this idea is obvious to everyone involved. Equality is a great thing to fight for but this is not a method that will achieve it.

  22. “When she did speak up, her statements were often questioned.”

    I thought that was meant to happen at a higher education institution: no statement goes unquestioned. The whole idea is to explore the things people say to see if they make sense or not.

  23. Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster…

    It’s too late for feminists now. They have jumped the shark far too often. Shirtgate. Elevatorgate. Gamergate. Metalgate. Now this. Now that people are actively starting to question feminist claims, everything is unraveling and the truth is coming out.

  24. I’ll accept the “Women speak first” rule as long as there isn’t a rule that I must attend or pretend to listen to them.

    1. According to ratemyprofessor.com she chases down people who leave her class early so apparently you would be required to attend and listen.

  25. “Feminism is about equality! Why do you question this?”

    “But you won’t let men speak..”

    “Shut up, scum! Women are talking!”

  26. How much proof do you need to know that so called feminist are suffering from a serious mental health issue. An issue ignored by society as misandry is always ignored overlooked or not acknowledged. I pity people who are so sad and lonely that they have to join some kind of club to feel worth.

  27. No one is going to tell us to go to the back of the bus. These people are sexists, bigots and misandrists. One AH said men must realize they have privilege – well ladies YOU HAVE THE SAME “PRIVILEGE” TOO – OPEN YOUR MOUTHS AND SPEAK – AS YOU ARE DOING! Feminism is now exactly aligned with traditionalists! Feminism is Patriarchy in Lipstick

  28. This misandric woman should be fired and never allowed near a classroom again. She is a bigot. If women are not speaking up in class, they can show some guts and open their mouths. At a time when male attendance at university is steadily falling a discriminatory and hateful policy like this one will only further drive men away from college. She’s not trying to move towards an equal society, she’s just being a man-hating bigot. FIRE HER. This is the feminist idea of equality – women first, men, maybe second, but in all probability men never.

    1. That’s the aim, I have forwarded this article to the dean of management and the president of SMU. If action isn’t taken by them im willing to get in contact with whoever. I’m a student in one of her classes and I don’t want my education to be in jepoardy because of this.

  29. Pretending that equality is achieved not by treating people equally, but by making people equal by force, one tacitly proclaims that the group being handicapped is naturally superior.

  30. It’s really to bad that the professor does not believe women are capable of competing on an equal basis with men. How does one become a professor when they hold such a low view of women?

  31. this is sooooooo stupid.
    And we all know it won’t work.
    It’s like the thing every teacher tried, “not letting the smart ass of the class talk first” but when they try it, no one speaks.

  32. If I were a woman and were the benefactor (if you would call it that) of a “women speak first” rule, I think it would make me feel pretty stupid. I believe it would be quite belittling to suggest that a woman, who may or may not be pre-disposed to wait and see what others had to say before speaking herself, should be pushed to the front of the line so as to combat the traditional patriarchy that sees men as more assertive, confident and likely to speak first.

  33. Katie said:

    “Discussion on misogyny in our institutions is important.”

    It seems, however, that discussion on misandry in your institutions is NOT important.

    Why? Both are present in society. Only someone who is blind to reality would claim otherwise.

  34. …if you’re white and you look like me…{emphasis added}

    Since you look like you, then you should not be up front speaking in the first place.

  35. If I were a participant in a discussion and I was told that I would not be recognized to speak, then I would quietly get up and leave.

  36. This is the pinnacle of idiocy. Do you think that in the boardrooms, meetings, public forums, and conferences that these university graduates will someday attend, that some Angel of Equality will hold the line for them so that they can speak first? Of course not. The world isn’t fair. People aren’t all equal. If black people, women, and transgender want to speak up and be heard in class, they can raise their hands, get in line, stand up and shout out of turn, whatever, and be heard and evaluated on the merit of their ideas and the quality of their rhetoric. Are women really delicate snowflakes that need an Orwellian Equality Enforcer to stand in every classroom to make sure they get to speak first?

  37. Sexism is alive and well in some groups, on the bright side it would give the men a chance to sleep so when it’s their turn to speak they will be well rested.

  38. My main concern (besides this being both sexist and racist) is the problem that will arise after college is over. Meaning when nobody is looking out for them and giving them the privilege to speak first what are women going to do then?
    I think it would be better served to help women make their voices heard by giving them agency. Reward them for speaking up and not letting themselves be silenced. I think too many feminist believe the lack of “respect” is based on misogynistic views rather then women being too tepid.
    Think about it, do quiet guys get drowned out too? If so is the default assumption circling back to patriarchy again proclaiming “feminine” traits? Of course they will suggest that because they won’t accept a much simpler reason, those who put themselves (ideas and words) out there with passion respect others who do the same! If you are not willing to defend yourself / point then you’ve already conceded and they no longer want to hear about your flawed ideas/points.
    Of course the response will be “but what about being labeled bossy!”. Well, see my previous point, because by complaining about being called ” bossy” is conceding that your original argument / point wasn’t important enough for you to defend over your emotions or being picked on.
    Really wish instead of complaining about this they would spend time watching how guys interact in groups without putting feminist judgment on them while doing so. If you sit back and watch how 2 or more guys talk among themselves not only will you see an individual attempt to silence another but notice the same tactics are used on men as well.

    1. @kjf

      …the problem that will arise after college is over. Meaning when nobody is looking out for them and giving them the privilege to speak first what are women going to do then?

      If this policy is successfully implemented in a few classes, then it will spread to other classes and other universities. Soon, students will become accustomed to the practice and will perceive it as normal. Eventually, more and more students will graduate having become accustomed to the idea that it is normal for women to speak first. The concept will then spread to all institutions. It will become the norm at staff meetings, board meetings, planning meetings, volunteer organizations, city council meetings and ultimately, legislative bodies. It will be taken for granted as a normal procedure and anyone who questions it will be regarded as an extremist.
      =

  39. I strongly disagree with this proposal. This is not promoting equality among the genders but rather simply tipping the scales in the opposite direction. Misogyny and discrimination of any sort are not to be tolerated be it towards females, males, race or any other individual. All deserve equal opportunity, respect and acceptance. You do not fight inequality by promoting more inequality. You do not fight a bully with bullying. You promote equality by giving both a fair chance and seeing them as equals. I see this proposal as another form of discrimination, not a solution to it. Frankly I am app-hauled that this would be allowed at SMU.

  40. I speak whenever I want. My vagina doesn’t speak for me either nor does my skin. EQUAL rights shouldn’t see gender, sexual orientation or colour. STOP TRYING TO SEPARATE AND CATAGORIZE EVERYONE.
    Pretty simple.

  41. What you are essentially saying is we should treat races and genders differently in the classroom.
    Why stop there why not have classes specific to your gender, race, height, weight, age and level of attractiveness. Besides it being a logical nightmare it would more or less the mini-apartheid you seem to be craving. But, it’s not like the men didn’t have it coming right? The don’t pay tuition for equal rights within the school.
    But I do have a question? When it’s the men’s turn to speak, will we be divided into races to. And if so what is your criteria for people of colour with we just be going from darkest to the lightest. Essentially all the white men will be in the back of the bus.
    This is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I say go ahead let them do it. With a nice class action suit we could get a semester free

  42. She concedes that more women are attending and graduating college than men. Sounds like they are doing alright for themselves but just to be safe we should continue to pour on the advantages. Why? Because! Equality! Doy!

    Sounds like they don’t want to say anything. Shouldn’t they be allowed not to say anything.

    Considering, if its true, what she says about greater number of female students then if there is a majority in a class and they all wanna say something, even if the man puts his hand up first, they have to go through every woman first. Then the bell rings and no man gets to speak. Another good day in the Matriarchy!

  43. This isn’t really that surprising…a University that teaches gender and woman studies is no longer a real university but a mill to crank out more SJW’s.

  44. Really? What are you teaching these women? They need to know how to debate and you are taking that away from them! I hope all the men walk out of your class and none of them sign up for it! If the women in your class are women, they will walk out of your class too! What a man hater!

    1. Thank you Andrea. Good to know women too notice how crazy a notion this is and stand against it. Guess all the “sexist” comments on here (sexist apparently means a comment the moderator disagrees with) aren’t coming from so-called MRA’s.

  45. I think the challenge lays with our elementary/middle school teachers. They have one of the most difficult jobs in the world; having to guide everyone one us. Learning from the mistakes of their generations to improve ours. We can attempt to teach the next generation that we’re all equal no matters the case. And for the most part I think it is working. I do not think creating new biases and obstacles is the way to go. We’d just be creating a new unequal generation ): Anyways that is my take on this article.

  46. Why should we allow the discrimination of men be the tool to fight the discrimination of women. Im all for equal opportunity, but two wrongs sure don’t make a right.

  47. Really, I can’t believe that tax dollars and the hard earned dollars of people who pay tuition for for this kind of nonsense. Why would anyone take a course on any subject other than radical feminism with this professor, since that’s apparently all she really cares about.

    And where in the real world does this kind of attitude, and teaching, get you?

  48. Why not try just treating everyone as equals and being respectful towards each other? That might just work.

  49. So for “equality” women must always go first, 100% of the time?
    Because 100% is the “equality” you want between the genders?

    You’re usually more subtle when using the call for “equality” to force blatant inequality to favor only women.

    The mask is slipping, you’re saying what you actually think, and being quite clear that “equality” isn’t anything you’re even slightly interested in.

    How far does this go?
    “I think that women of colour should speak first in class,”

    Oh yeah? Well i think handicapable non-cisgendered trans-women of color with mixed race backgrounds and a pronounced stutter should always speak first… and if you don’t have one of those, you should be forced to go find one before any speaking in each class.

    Why not? Since the goal is to one-up the idiocy at every step; why isn’t this the new goal?

  50. These particular women, not women in general but these particular women, should not speak anytime, in any public or group setting.

    Unless it’s a “Women’s Studies” hen party. Then, who cares what they do.

  51. Yup, there’s the backlash against feminism that’s been building up. Women surely do live lives of golden privilege, and always have done. (Hey, MRAs, is that all women or just white women? Because I think some WOC definitely missed that memo.)

    Perspective: one professor talking about a classroom management choice in her (maybe) three classes. Communications research for years asserted that men usually got first comment, were more vocal and dominant in discussions. One professor tries to consciously assert the opposite in her classes, as an experiment, and the reactions would lead one to believe she’d said all men should have their organs removed and be locked in the basement!

    Perhaps it is not an effective tool. I am not a classroom management expert, I don’t know. Are students still learning? As for how will this affect students when they are in the workforce, they will definitely encounter idiosyncratic bosses, so it may be excellent preparation.

  52. I don’t know, I’m just an ordinary blue-collared everyday working Canuck; is it just me, but for (supposedly) highly educated professors, there just doesn’t seem to be much thinking past personal fief-doms or the end of one’s nose…singling out a group based on their gender? Are we evolving or devolving?…but hey, like I said, I’m just an ordinary blue-collared working Canadian slob, I could be wrong….

  53. “But it’s about equality! We’re just as strong, and just as capable as men! We’re just timid and weak and need to be given far more hand-holding and coddling to do the exact same jobs we’re paid 30% less for!”

    Muh feminism.

  54. This is preposterous.

    This is simply an individual using a given set of circumstances to advance or force their own insecurities on a collective group of people.

    Women are perfectly free and capable of answering questions, offering their opinions and coming up with creative ideas, thoughts and processes.

    The 13 fools who participated in the facebook trash which they chose to post and participate in should be justly punished.

    Trying to create a bandwagon in which all men are punished for the sake of these morons is laughable, and this woman should be questioned as to her fitness to provide a fair education to all involved.

    Women need to speak out for themselves individually; this shows strength and those who are strong enough to do so, regardless of gender, are rewarded in our society. Doing this on a collective level only suggests that women are weak, and have to conspire as a group to achieve their means, under the guise of law or policy.

    I know many strong women, and they don’t need a collective of candy-a**es dragging them down, just because said candy-a**es are too whiny and weak to accomplish something of their own accord. There are a significant number of male individuals who aren’t up to the task, get left behind, and aren’t creative or bright enough to succeed in the world of business, or any given sector for that matter.

    This should not be turned into a forum for the advancement or “getting a leg up” for the weak women of the world. Strong women don’t need this assistance.

    Quit doing everything collectively, under the perception that you are a mistreated minority who has no power over themselves: you only serve to weaken yourselves.

    This is a strong society of individuals.

    If you want something for yourself, fight for it. If you need policy, law, the feeling of protection from a group, then you’ve already self-identified as needing reassurance, guidance, protection and ultimately are asking for a victory which you don’t have to earn. You want it on a silver platter.

    I don’t want any leaders in my midst who’ve been placed there by policy, rather than by having earned it themselves.

  55. January 25, 2015

    There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe them. (George Orwell)

    We are most fortunate to live in an era of unparalleled Progress! Each day some new Discovery is made, some superior Method of accomplishing old Tasks is devised, or some extraordinary Idea is proposed which has the Capacity to improve the Lot of Humankind.

    The latest such Innovation is that practised by Professor Judy Haiven, a Professor at the Sobey School of Business, at Saint Mary’s University in Halifax.

    Ms Haiven, fed up with the pervasive Misogyny of our Age, and the Tendency of Men to monopolize Conversations, has decided to fight back: in her Classroom, Women speak first, while Men – known for their Aggression and Assertiveness – are relegated to the Back of the Contributory Bus. They are allowed to speak only when their Superiors in Refinement and Gentility have been heard.

    We think this is a most admirable Advancement towards a much needed Equality! The Forward should, in all Areas, be pushed back, while the Backward, should be pushed forward, so that there is a wonderful Concentration of All exactly in the Middle.

    Only through such far-sighted Initiatives can Nirvana be achieved — within our Lifetimes — on this troubled Planet.

    We can see only two possible Criticisms – and they are of a very minor Nature.

    The First is that the Identification of those in a Backward State involves some small Degree of Condescension. There is some very slight Chance that those chosen as needing Advancement might feel some Mark of Opprobrium. To this we would reply with the well-worn Wisdom: some Cracking of a few thin-shelled Eggs may be necessary to create the Omelette of social Engineering so desperately needed by our disordered and disorderly Society.

    The second Criticism is only that Ms. Haiven has not extended her Philosophy to the Lengths quite obviously required. There are many Groups whose Voices are of varying Strength in the general Discourse — who are deserving of an equalizing Megaphone.

    Those who have a skin colour different from that of the Majority, those of different cultural Backgrounds, sexual Orientations, Athleticism, Attractiveness, Handedness, and Eye Colour – all have a Claim to greater Prominence than that which they currently possess.

    It would appear prudent to classify all Individuals according to their Membership in a Minority Group, and give them a Priority Number, which would be tattooed on their Foreheads. There might be some minor Disputes as to Precedence — especially considering those claiming Membership in two or more Groups — but we have an infinite Faith in those of benign Intent, and superior Intelligence.
    Once all Citizens have been given their proper Priority Number, the current Plagues of Feelings of Inferiority, false Strivings, and invidious Competitions will, mercifully, be Things of the Past, of the antique Days of Folly, Ignorance, and Misery.

    The Brave New World will be upon us.

    (From Dr. Dreimer’s Diary)

  56. ‘Talking about instituting a policy that punishes men for being men and rewards women for being women’ – “Ashburn said during the panel that they feel “burned out” when “what about the men?” is asked in “every conversation” about misogyny.”

    Is it really surprising that, when you’re suggesting implementing a policy that is transparently sexist towards men, people might want to discuss how said policy might affect men? I’m sorry that people questioning how your proposed policy might be just a little bit sexist is so bothersome to you.

  57. If you want women to feel comfortable speaking up they don’t need men to wait at the back of the line they need to be raised to know they can ask questions and give their own view point on matters.

    You want to end misogyny? How about you first start with ending your own misandry Judy Haiven

  58. “I think that women of colour should speak first in class,” Ashburn said after the panel discussion.

    Ashburn is an outreach co-ordinator for South House, a gender and sexual resource centre in Halifax, and identifies as a “non-binary trans person.”

    “When I do activist circles or workshops, I often say, ‘OK, if you’re white and you look like me and you raise your hand, I’m not going to pick on you before someone of colour.’ So I do give little disclaimers, like people of colour will have priority, or if you’re a person with a disability, you’re pushed to the front … I mean, you know, bros fall back,” Ashburn said with a laugh.

    Wow, Ashburn REALLY IS A BIGOTED SEXIST – SHE ADMITS IT! She works at a college?

  59. Men shouldn’t attend college with these bigots, definitely not Dals or SMU. Online college for men. Don’t date college women.

  60. Another reason why none of my sons will be attending Dalhousie. No worries though, I’ve had them immunized against feminism so they don’t drop with the illness.

  61. I had a professor like that in College.

    It was a public speaking class, I as the only male.
    I was almost failed because my participation was nonexistent.

    I participated, i just sat there with my hand raised and never got called on.

  62. This is pretty smart. The women can speak first, then the men can come in and correct their wrong answers.

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